Ronnie has some very severe personality disorders & i do not believe he passed the MM

[ShowMangle]

the diagnostic MMPI. I actually think the guy is about two failures & five years from turning into a serial killer and no, i am not joking. After watching his "blonde video, i am convinced that he is a danger to himself & others but you cannot do anything with a theory, you have to wait for them to act out. I pray it doesn't involve any malls, schools or guns.

"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy." [1]

The narcissist is described as turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others and as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness. It is also colloquially referred to as "the God complex.

DSM IV-TR criteria

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:[1]

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love (megalomania)
3. Believes they are "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Is interpersonally exploitative
7. Lacks empathy
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

The etiology of this disorder is unknown, according to Groopman and Cooper. However, they list the following factors identified by various researchers as possible factors.[3]

* An oversensitive temperament at birth
* Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents
* Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem
* Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback
* Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents
* Severe emotional abuse in childhood
* Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or talents by adults
* Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for poor behaviors in childhood

Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed[4]. Some psychotherapists believe that the etiology of the disorder is, in Freudian terms the result of fixation, to early childhood development[5]. If a child does not receive sufficient recognition for their talents during about ages 3–7 they will never mature and continue to be in the narcissistic early development stage. It has been suggested[6] that NPD may be exacerbated by the onset of aging and the physical, mental, and occupational restrictions it imposes as can most personality traits.

People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined [11]. To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility. In the case of feeling the lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation the person can also manifest wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).

Though individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements [12]. With narcissistic personality disorder, the person's perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments.

The exploitative, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, disregard for others, and constant need for attention inherent in NPD adversely affect interpersonal relationships."

More information is available at Wikipedia but the DSM is the best place for further criteria.

[moviegal]

NPD is an offshoot of ASPD (Antisocial Personality Disorder), the other branch from this tree is what was formerly called Sociopathy (according to DSM-IV). We've certainly not seen enough of Ronnie to make a diagnosis of this kind - you can not tell a person's behavior in society from their behavior in the BB house. Although Ronnie makes me want to hurl, he's no different from many, many computer geeks (or for that matter, Renn Fair people) who find a hobby that they enjoy. Ronnie appears to love and have a great deal of empathy for cats - which is totally contrary to those suffering from ASPD. He also is active in both theater and speech and debate, all of which are group activities. ASPDs are loners. He also doesn't appear to have any drug or alcohol addictions, which are also symptomatic of ASPDs. These kinds of behaviors usually manifest themselves starting around age 15, so there probably would have been some indication of juvenile offenses, or adult criminal offenses by the age he is now.

I honestly wouldn't want to label somebody like this arbitrarily judging from two weeks in the Big Brother house.

[ShowMangle]

wow, your criteria and associations are very different from what i was taught & my opinion is mostly based on his 'blonde ambition video' not his behavior in the house. the substance abuse criteria is clearly met if you watched that video & the manifestation of the full fledged disorder is dependent on his experiencing more disappointments as an adult. i stick by my theory.

[moviegal]

I'm not talking about substance abuse, I'm talking about addiction. I've dealt with several ASPDs in my personal life - and my husband is an attorney who has unwittingly brought a couple of ASPDs into our lives, as well. I do a lot of the research for him. As a matter of fact, he has a client right now that is an ASPD with narcissistic tendencies - and not long ago we had dinner with a long term friend (who is a shrink that also works with the Court system) who is consulting on this particular case. We just had a long discussion about the most up-to-date thinking on ASPDs, along with the fact that at this point, there is no successful treatment for these disorders.

Since you brought up the DSM, the DSM used to consider Personality disorders as being categorized as Psychopathic disorders. It wasn't until Hare did his research and writings (based on the fact that he felt that Psychopathic disorders was just too broad of an umbrella just to lump personality disorders into) that the DSM revised their thinking on both ASPDs and BPDs (Borderline Personality Disorders) - and removed them from the Psychopathic category.

The bulk of ASPDs are not diagnosed until they hit the Court system - since they don't believe that anything is wrong with them - it's other people's fault that "makes" them behave like this, fueling their need for retribution and vengeance. So since they don't think they need help, they don't seek treatment. However, since they are such accomplished manipulators and liars, they actually use psychiatric treatment to their benefit - it teaches them new and additional ways of manipulating people. This is a real problem, since fully 10% of all US males are suspected to be ASPDs.

Although some of these personality traits exist in all of us, no legitimate psychologist or psychiatrist would make a diagnosis based on a video and two weeks in the BB house. IMO, I think that maybe you're confusing acting with legitimate NPD behavior. We know that Ronnie has spent many years in the theater, so he is using these talents to advance him in the game. That doesn't make him NPD, just a player that's using the tools that he brings with him into the game. Again, I want Ronnie out of this house as soon as possible - but I wouldn't try to diagnose him with a personality disorder based on the limited info we have on him.

[Joolz]

Excellent post, moviegal. Thank you.

[Dara]

Ok, I am not fully familiar with the DSM, and I'm not a psychologist, but I have close personal experience with a family member who has ASPD (Narcissitic, specifically, co morbidity with bipolar disorder), and I've been observing Ronnie in the habitat for a month or so ... he displays NONE of the grandiose behaviors I know come along with textbook Narcissism. Yes, he displays a slightly elevated sense of self, but he also shows signs of anxiety and insecurity that a Narcissist is very careful to cover or is not inclined to experience at all. The tempo of his speech tends to increase when he's nervous and he fidgets, and that whole week spent inside the HOH when he could be Lording himself over the other HGs certain of his own superiority tells me that the guy is extremely insecure, not at all typical of a Narcissist.

Now as for the addiction thing, an argument can be made that he may not have an addiction to drugs, but he's admitted he's dealt with a video gaming addiction in the past. Addictions aren't always drug related, there are other psychologically addictive behaviors that draw a Narcissist in. Religion, gambling, video games, shopping, etc are all addictive behaviors that can be common with a Narcissist. In the case of the family member I have with ASPD, the addiction was sexual then when DXed as bipolar, replaced his addiction with a fervent religious bent that feeds his meglomania. His "closeness" with God is better than anyone else's and that makes him better than everyone else. And of course he believes he's been "cured" by his faith. UGH. He has an addictive personality, but has never had a substance abuse problem, just behavioral addictions.

Again though, that being said, I don't believe he has a classic case of ASPD. I tend to agree with Dr Drew when he says that most Reality TV cases can be considered "somewhat" anti social, but to say that he's nearly a serial killer is the worst kind of hyperbole.

[moviegal]

Excellent post, moviegal. Thank you.

Thank you, dear. I'm glad you decided to stick around.

Dara - thanks so much for sharing your experiences with us, I know this has to have been a long and painful process for you. And you are absolutely right about addictions, I focused on drug and alcohol addiction because that is what we see most often through the Court System - but again, you are absolutely right. I also don't see the "Grand gestures" that are common with NPD. And your family member is common in that quite often these individuals have other mental disorders along with the ASPD - often clinical depression, or in your family member's case, bipolar disorder. These other conditions can be treated separately, often with medication (depending on the illness). I know that from personal experience, once you've dealt with an ASPD you never forget it!

There is something about people that want to be on Reality Shows - you really open yourself up when you put yourself "out there" into society as yourself (very different from being an actor, which is all about inhabiting someone else. It takes a special kind of person to even want to do that.

[Dara]

Thank you, dear. I'm glad you decided to stick around.

Dara - thanks so much for sharing your experiences with us, I know this has to have been a long and painful process for you. And you are absolutely right about addictions, I focused on drug and alcohol addiction because that is what we see most often through the Court System - but again, you are absolutely right. I also don't see the "Grand gestures" that are common with NPD. And your family member is common in that quite often these individuals have other mental disorders along with the ASPD - often clinical depression, or in your family member's case, bipolar disorder. These other conditions can be treated separately, often with medication (depending on the illness). I know that from personal experience, once you've dealt with an ASPD you never forget it!

There is something about people that want to be on Reality Shows - you really open yourself up when you put yourself "out there" into society as yourself (very different from being an actor, which is all about inhabiting someone else. It takes a special kind of person to even want to do that.

Honestly, it has been a long process, the family member was dxed when I was very young ... possibly before I was born, I can't recall the timeline as it's all been third hand information (he's an older relative), and was diagnosed before the revisions in the DSM you mentioned earlier. Back then his bipolar disorder was called "Manic Depression," and his ASPD was also called something different. that ought to tell you how long it's been. The ONLY thing you can do when someone you know has an ASPD is distance yourself. Their influence on the lives around them is extremely destructive. And since in my family member's case it involves a mood disorder it's especially so.

It's really easy to throw around the Narcissist label, since as you said, most people display at least some or all of the traits at one point or another, but when you know someone who has it, you know when you see it again. Ronnie certainly has his psychological challenges, but I wouldn't jump to hit that anti social button so soon.

[blindwilliedunn]

my husband is an attorney who has unwittingly brought a couple of ASPDs into our lives

At the risk of making light of your situation, this is the plot for CAPE FEAR.

You don't get these threads on other sites! Interesting, thanks for sharing eveyone :)

[moviegal]

At the risk of making light of your situation, this is the plot for CAPE FEAR.

You don't get these threads on other sites! Interesting, thanks for sharing eveyone :)

Not Cape Fear- he has one client right now in a civil suite, and we had one on the other side hounding us for a while...but the worst was the one that wanted my husband to represent him and he wouldn't. That guy tried everything - it was a real nuisance, at best. They're really scary when they turn on the charm. Right now, this client goes and tells his shrink what he wants to do, then comes back and tells my husband that his shrink told him to do it. Typical kind of thing.

[ShowMangle]

Not Cape Fear- Right now, this client goes and tells his shrink what he wants to do, then comes back and tells my husband that his shrink told him to do it. Typical kind of thing.

Um, isn't that exactly what Ronnie has been doing for the past two weeks?
Anyway, based on 20 years as a substance abuse counselor, and duly noting some remarkable insights and comments from everyone, i still stand by my theory. NPD, manifests itself differently in different individuals and it is definitely atypical that the first addiction would be to gaming but that is a definite and recognized addiction.

By the time NPD's are in the court system their symptoms are very pronounced and what i am seeing in Ronnie is a case where the individual is just smart enough to cloak his untoward behavior. I do not think he is a good actor by any stretch of the imagination and his discomfort and seeming remorse is not uncharacteristic of the early stages.

Again, i said that his disorder would manifest itself fully in the face of several more severe failures as an adult, which i am afraid are in the making for him.

[moviegal]

Um, isn't that exactly what Ronnie has been doing for the past two weeks?
Anyway, based on 20 years as a substance abuse counselor, and duly noting some remarkable insights and comments from everyone, i still stand by my theory.

Ronnie has been playing a game on a reality show - the example that I gave was a real life situation. There is neither a Psychiatrist or a Psychologist living in the house this year. Your statement about them being advanced by the time they reach the court system is very misleading - as I said earlier, symptoms usually begin to become manifest by age 15 - as a counselor, I would think that you would know this...if not, just talk to anybody that deals with juvenile offenses. Also, as a counselor, I would think that you of all people would know that no legitimate, certified psychiatrist or psychologist would even attempt to diagnose somebody on such limited information - especially information that has been manipulated by a network and a TV production company. Also, how damaging these kinds of arbitrary diagnoses (coming from those not Certified in the Psychiatric field) can be for the individual. These are real people, not characters in a soap opera that cannot be hurt IRL.

I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone with a mental illness or personality disorder - I'm neither a Certified Psychiatrist nor a Psychologist. But I am agreeing with the others that say that I just do not see these symptoms in Ronnie, based on what limited and manipulated info we've seen - (2) weeks in the house and a manufactured video.

[Dara]

Um, isn't that exactly what Ronnie has been doing for the past two weeks?
Anyway, based on 20 years as a substance abuse counselor, and duly noting some remarkable insights and comments from everyone, i still stand by my theory. NPD, manifests itself differently in different individuals and it is definitely atypical that the first addiction would be to gaming but that is a definite and recognized addiction.

By the time NPD's are in the court system their symptoms are very pronounced and what i am seeing in Ronnie is a case where the individual is just smart enough to cloak his untoward behavior. I do not think he is a good actor by any stretch of the imagination and his discomfort and seeming remorse is not uncharacteristic of the early stages.

Again, i said that his disorder would manifest itself fully in the face of several more severe failures as an adult, which i am afraid are in the making for him.


Yes, but your theory leaves one gaping hole ... rage. That's the one marker that is consistent in every case of NPD, social rejection is met with rage. Even (especially) in early stages. I think it's a bit ironic that in one sentence you claim he's a good actor (by being able to cloak his behavior, ie acting) and in the next say he's not a good actor. In order to cloak the untoward behaviors you're describing, he'd have to be one hell of an actor.

Quite honestly, I'm somewhat offended by your blithe throwing about of a very serious clinical diagnosis ...

[Dara]

Also, as a counselor, I would think that you of all people would know that no legitimate, certified psychiatrist or psychologist would even attempt to diagnose somebody on such limited information - especially information that has been manipulated by a network and a TV production company. Also, how damaging these kinds of arbitrary diagnoses (coming from those not Certified in the Psychiatric field) can be for the individual. These are real people, not characters in a soap opera that cannot be hurt IRL.

I'm not qualified to diagnose anyone with a mental illness or personality disorder - I'm neither a Certified Psychiatrist nor a Psychologist. But I am agreeing with the others that say that I just do not see these symptoms in Ronnie, based on what limited and manipulated info we've seen - (2) weeks in the house and a manufactured video.

Any clinician should know that Ronnie's actions in the house or otherwise "on tape" are subject to the Observer Affect, and therefore cannot be used as a means to "diagnose" any disorder, whether it be a social anxiety disorder or an Axis 1 disorder as the OP has. As long as Ronnie knows he's being observed, his behavior will always be altered.

[moviegal]

Yes, but your theory leaves one gaping hole ... rage. That's the one marker that is consistent in every case of NPD, social rejection is met with rage. Even (especially) in early stages. I think it's a bit ironic that in one sentence you claim he's a good actor (by being able to cloak his behavior, ie acting) and in the next say he's not a good actor. In order to cloak the untoward behaviors you're describing, he'd have to be one hell of an actor.

Quite honestly, I'm somewhat offended by your blithe throwing about of a very serious clinical diagnosis ...

I'm with you on this, Dara. It's one thing to speculate about a fictional character in a book, film,or television program - but another to make such a serious accusation about a real human being that will have to function in life after the show ends. I particularly dislike feeling like I have to defend this jackass! As for the highlighted area above - you are absolutely correct - rage is the major indicator in all cases of ASPD. As for the NPD, the other thing missing from Ronnie that is almost a given with all NPDs is their obsessive possessiveness of other people. Ronnie refers to his wife as Michelle or Shell, and to the cats as "their babies." The classic NPD almost exclusively refers to others as their property - MY wife, - or MY babies, or MY cats. And it would be highly unlikely to see an NPD crying in front of a camera and talking about how much they wish they could talk to their spouse because the spouse would know what to do in a given situation. They would never willingly relinquish these kinds of decisions or control to anything they consider their property.

[ShowMangle]

Any clinician should know that Ronnie's actions in the house or otherwise "on tape" are subject to the Observer Affect, and therefore cannot be used as a means to "diagnose" any disorder, whether it be a social anxiety disorder or an Axis 1 disorder as the OP has. As long as Ronnie knows he's being observed, his behavior will always be altered.

Well color me slap happy all i see in the guy is rage. I hope you two are right & I am wrong! And my whole point about his cloaking his behavior to not 'out' himself is a totally different ball of wax than 'actoring'.

As to the Observer Affect, that has been called into question so many times. It is debated that no subject is ever NOT in observer mode so how do we ever read their affect?

I will just agree to disagree. You both obviously feel very strongly about your views but every NPD i have worked with backs up my theories about Ron. I tend to see NPD's in the early stages, first treatment, etc.

I would pay money to see Ronnie's MMPI.

[ShowMangle]

Yes, but your theory leaves one gaping hole ... rage. That's the one marker that is consistent in every case of NPD, social rejection is met with rage. Even (especially) in early stages. I think it's a bit ironic that in one sentence you claim he's a good actor (by being able to cloak his behavior, ie acting) and in the next say he's not a good actor. In order to cloak the untoward behaviors you're describing, he'd have to be one hell of an actor.

Quite honestly, I'm somewhat offended by your blithe throwing about of a very serious clinical diagnosis ...

Well, for me, all i see in Ronnie is rage and i feel certain that his family sees it all the time. If 500g's and the title were not at stake, i think we would have seen a lot more rage than tears in that HOH room. My experience, my take on the situation.

[ShowMangle]

Quite honestly, I'm somewhat offended by your blithe throwing about of a very serious clinical diagnosis ...[/QUOTE]

Seriously? OMG, I don't even know how to comment on that except to say this is a freekin discussion board for a freekin tv reality show!

Maybe I am around evolved people who feel comfortable joking about the psychiatric community and having fun diagnosing celebrities and politicians on our lunch breaks.

If you decide to be offended by my opinions, that is a choice you make and not much that i can do about it except feel a little bit sorry for you.

[moviegal]

Maybe I am around evolved people who feel comfortable joking about the psychiatric community and having fun diagnosing celebrities and politicians on our lunch breaks.

TROLL ALERT - TROLL, TROLL!!!!!!!!

There is nothing "evolved" about making fun of people that have more education, experience, tact and the ability to keep things in confidence...that's obviously young, immature, juvenile behavior.

[Dara]

Seriously? OMG, I don't even know how to comment on that except to say this is a freekin discussion board for a freekin tv reality show!

Maybe I am around evolved people who feel comfortable joking about the psychiatric community and having fun diagnosing celebrities and politicians on our lunch breaks.

If you decide to be offended by my opinions, that is a choice you make and not much that i can do about it except feel a little bit sorry for you.

"Evolved" people understand that Axis 1 personality disorders are extremely serious, and not just a term to be bandied about. A clinician would know this as well ... but a faux-nician as yourself thinks it's hilariously funny, I suppose. NPD, as I said, has affected my REAL life and is nothing to "joke" about. Its devestating impact on a family is in NO way funny. I suspected you for a troll or a "wind up" from the get go, and I know see my gut reaction was 100% correct, you're nothing but a moron, thumping chimp-like on a keyboard looking for a reaction. Don't go back patting though ... the only reason I responded is for those who don't know about these disorders who may stumble upon your inane drivel and might take it as gospel. :p

No worries, my "slight" offense has been replaced by amusement. NPD may be nothing to laugh at, but I do find willfull ignorance slightly amusing. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare <---- for you.

[maxpower]

ShowMangle, you are exactly the type of person who should not be diagnosing people like this in real life. I feel sorry for any patients that come in contact with you through your "career," whatever it may be. I don't really know anything about these illnesses, but I would say YOU are the one with some sort of narcissistic disorder, coming on here to quote the DSM. You sound like some over eager student trying to show off what they just learned.

[dingo]

do I need to ask that we go back to poking at the hamsters instead of each other?

cool, I didn't think so.. thanks all :)

[ShowMangle]

do I need to ask that we go back to poking at the hamsters instead of each other?

cool, I didn't think so.. thanks all :)

seriously!

the one thing i know for sure about 'serious' mental health diagnosis is that you have no chance without a good sense of humor.:o:rolleyes::eek:

[Dara]

seriously!

the one thing i know for sure about 'serious' mental health diagnosis is that you have no chance without a good sense of humor.:o:rolleyes::eek:

More deceased equine flagellation. Yawn. I guess there's nothing funnier than abused spouses, emotionally and physically abused then abandoned children, families torn asunder, theft, financial abuse (yes, it exists), public embarassment, etc etc etc. Hilarious.

[ShowMangle]

More deceased equine flagellation. Yawn. I guess there's nothing funnier than abused spouses, emotionally and physically abused then abandoned children, families torn asunder, theft, financial abuse (yes, it exists), public embarassment, etc etc etc. Hilarious.

Wow, you really don't get it do you? The one string we have to play is our attitude and barring chemical imbalances, every thing you listed can topple anyone that does not have a good attitude coupled with an ability to laugh.

If an individual stays bitter, or stays in the perpetual victim mode that is a choice they make and it has nothing to do with what was done to them.

[Dara]

http://pysih.com/2009/06/10/cheyenne-cherry/

THIS is what a REAL Narcissist is like. Really funny right? Oh wait, no ... that's not funny at all. Horrifying in fact. It's probably only funny to the mentally derranged themselves.

[ShowMangle]

http://pysih.com/2009/06/10/cheyenne-cherry/

THIS is what a REAL Narcissist is like. Really funny right? Oh wait, no ... that's not funny at all. Horrifying in fact. It's probably only funny to the mentally derranged themselves.

I cannot have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. An inability to differentiate between this discussion & that bizarre, hate filled rant website is reason enough to end this discussion............spelling derranged with two r's is an even better reason. I will keep you & anyone you come in contact with in my prayers.:D

[Dara]

I cannot have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. An inability to differentiate between this discussion & that bizarre, hate filled rant website is reason enough to end this discussion............spelling derranged with two r's is an even better reason. I will keep you & anyone you come in contact with in my prayers.:D

::scoff:: glass houses, folks. Oh the irony. Some of the keys on my keyboard stick (I have children, they're rather messy at times) what's YOUR excuse? LOL

You think it's fake? How funny, the case has been in the news for a while.

That's what ASPD and NPD are REALLY like, that's the brand you're using on people. It's not my problem if you don't like it. As for the wits ... darling, you haven't a hope in this world.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/07/15/2009-07-15_cheyenne_cherry_taunts_animal_activists_after_getting_plea_deal_killing_kitten_i.html

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Frisky-Feline-Felons-Foul-Finale.html